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Alcohol Fuel anyone? This is the ultimate renewable energy!

#1
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Have you looked at alcohol fuel production?  It gets a bum rap from the media!  No, it doesn't dwindle our food resources.  That is a myth!  It is 98% less pollutant than gasoline, is less volatile, it will easily maintain a car engine up to 500,000 miles, and it can be used in a closed agricultural setting called "permaculture" by the ethanol guru of all time, David Blume.  Go to David's website to find out the truth about ethanol.  http://www.alcoholcanbeagas.com/?bid=2&aid=CD278&opt=

 

Many other crops can be used, such as cattails (which can be dual used to filter sewage) or seaweed!  Corn is a very inefficient crop to use.  The leftover product can be fed to animals and is very healthy.  I'll be happy to steer you to resources about producing your own alcohol.  Just ask!


Edited by saintjerome - Mon, 19 Jan 2009 22:25:00 GMT


Edited by saintjerome - Mon, 19 Jan 2009 22:32:17 GMT


Edited by saintjerome - Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:38:22 GMT
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#2
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Everything I've read indicates that the bad rap of corn-based ethanol is well-deserved.

 

For example, Climate Progress' Can words describe how bad corn ethanol is?

 

There was also a very thorough Stanford study on energy alternatives which concluded:

 

Recommends:

  1. Wind
  2. Concentrated Solar Power
  3. Geothermal
  4. Tidal
  5. PV
  6. Wave power
  7. Hydroelectric

 

Does Not Recommend:

  1. Nuclear
  2. Coal (with Carbon Capture/Sequestration)
  3. Cellulosic and Corn Ethanol


 

"The Tier 4 combinations (cellulosic- and corn-E85) were ranked lowest overall and with respect to climate, air pollution, land use, wildlife damage, and chemical waste."


Edited by dana1981 - Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:04:51 UTC
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#3
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Our original poster does acknowledge that corn ethanol is inefficient.

I live in a corn growing area, and so we have done some how to use corn studies.

We discussed building a corn burning steam power system in stead of using ethanol.

The energetics involved worked better, but we then had to have redesigned equipment. We do have a lot of farm homes that burn corn as winter heating fuel, and it gives better economy than using the same value of heating oil.

 

We also looked at feeding the corn to cattle, and collecting methane from the manure. Well that gives better economics than ethanol even though ethanol production leaves a residue for animal feed. This comes from the fact that corn with a bit of urea can produce protein at lower cost than we get from post-ethanol feedstocks.

 

But at the same time we are using the whole stalk corn to feed the cattle. When we get to using whole stalk corn in ethanol production, we may get close to the same economics if, and only if, the processing is done on farm so that the residue from ethanol stays there to feed the cattle and then to fertilize the fields. If that whole stalk corn leaves the farm we see no prospect of getting the residue back to feed cattle and fertilize the fields.

 

Using other crops which do not get so much fertilizer is a great idea, particularly a crop like poplar trees that can grow for a decade between harvests and do not need tillage or planting. But we get more energy by direct burning of the wood rather than converting to ethanol. For ethanol production we again have to evaluate byproduct use, and the effort needed to get plant nutrients and carbon back to the soils on which the trees grow. If that does not happen we can destroy a thousand years of soil development within a hundred years.

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#4
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I can only go by what I've "heard", or read, so I may be misinformed. But I do know that Hops are in a very short supply. Prices went from $4.00/lb to over $24.00/lb in a few months. The reason given was, Why would you grow Hops when you can grow fuel?

I also believe that ethanol production has increased crop prices.

Think about it. Doesn't it sound good to take some of our oil dependency away from foreign oil and put it on the American farmer? Sounds politically correct to me.

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#5
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Yes, corn ethanol is to some degree a bit more problematic, but ...if you place your alcohol fuel production in a "permaculture" it is a closed loop and virtually no energy is lost.  Choose other crop for the "sugar" such as Jerusalem artichokes or cattails.  Feed the byproduct to your animals.  Burn the ultra safe fuel with little to no pollution.  Tie that in with a PHEV car such as mine, and, you get 60-70 mpg at 98% less pollution.  Is your car doing that?

 

Heck even seaweed can be used.  With seaweed, you can cut it like hair, and it simply grows back.  There has been a lot of bad propaganda about ethanol and many people have bought into the petroleum industry's scare tactics.  If you really want to be informed you need to go to David Blumes site and that will answer your questions.  I'm pretty sure that if you are responded negatively, you truly have not done the complete research. 

 

For the informed about ethanol:  David Blume's ethanol site, everything you could possibly want to know!!!


Edited by saintjerome - Tue, 27 Jan 2009 21:37:54 GMT


Edited by saintjerome - Tue, 27 Jan 2009 21:39:07 GMT


Edited by saintjerome - Tue, 27 Jan 2009 21:40:24 GMT


Edited by saintjerome - Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:39:08 GMT
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#6
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That Blume site is a mess of promotion that I wandered around in for too long to think I would ever learn anything worth while there.

Perhaps Blume is assuming I would just go out and buy a book and a couple DVDs in hope that I would discover something I do not already know.

 

Yes, we can produce ethanol for a low cost if we do not have to pay for the substrates. I can collect enough substrate by harvesting the road that runs past my farm, but I have to harvest a couple miles of road. Not everyone on the road can do that. Once one of us collects that substrate, the rest are out of luck.

 

I have no objection to raising the cost of food and thus making farmers some more money. Anyone who does not want food diverted to ethanol production is free to go buy it as food. If vegetarians do not want food diverted to feed animals, they can go buy it so that it is no longer available for animal food.

What those buyers of food do with that food is up to them.

 

And if ethanol producers buy food and convert it to ethanol, who cares! The people who wanted to eat it should have bought it first. Farmers should not have to hold that inventory forever.

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#7
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Quote:You say that you wandered around the David Blume site and nothing is worthwhile there:
Originally Posted by donfletcher:

That Blume site is a mess of promotion that I wandered around in for too long to think I would ever learn anything worth while there.

Perhaps Blume is assuming I would just go out and buy a book and a couple DVDs in hope that I would discover something I do not already know.

 

Yes, we can produce ethanol for a low cost if we do not have to pay for the substrates. I can collect enough substrate by harvesting the road that runs past my farm, but I have to harvest a couple miles of road. Not everyone on the road can do that. Once one of us collects that substrate, the rest are out of luck.

 

I have no objection to raising the cost of food and thus making farmers some more money. Anyone who does not want food diverted to ethanol production is free to go buy it as food. If vegetarians do not want food diverted to feed animals, they can go buy it so that it is no longer available for animal food.

What those buyers of food do with that food is up to them.

 

And if ethanol producers buy food and convert it to ethanol, who cares! The people who wanted to eat it should have bought it first. Farmers should not have to hold that inventory forever.

Well, I am sorry you didn't find anything productive there.  I have listened to David for 8 hours on radio, watched his DVD, and read his book.  I bought my own still and produce my own ethanol for about .90 a gallon.  So...you might have not found anything productive or useful...but I found renewable, affordable engery that saves 98% pollution and is 100% natural and a part of the ecosystem.  Nothing is wasted...so..I would surmise that you got "lost" in the info.  It is a shame because people keep mistakenly believing that ethanol raises food costs, when there is absolutely no need for that.  I use garbage.  Sounds a lot like the Back to the Future DeLorean doesn't it.  Sorry, you had a such a bad experience...But I on the otherhand and collecting quite a savings!!!

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#8
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You never read carefully. As a farmer I do not mind if ethanol production raises the cost of food. But I am concerned if people are selling the story that we can all power our cars using garbage as substrate. There is some garbage available, but if we all try to power our world from the garbage, the price of garbage is going to skyrocket.

 

I have no concern if the price of garbage goes up either. But it blows your budget for producing your ethanol. Once anything useful is discovered by the marketplace, the economic advantage for those using it disappears. Then you are right back to buying your substrate at market prices.

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#9
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Wow do you really mean the price of garbage will climb! That is very funny! I'm talking about using my own waste, my own garden,my own "permaculture". Not some massive ethanol plant. I'm talking about all of us becoming more independent. I doubt if by using my own garbage I will raise the price of garbage even though that is an interesting thought.
Edited by saintjerome - Wed, 11 Feb 2009 02:59:46 GMT
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#10
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I'm looking forward to going to the David Blume seminar this weekend!  Look at my other post on the seminar!



Edited by saintjerome - Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:41:02 GMT
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#11
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 What are the myths of BIG OIL?  The Alcohol Can Be a Gas website sums it up well:

 

 

"Myth #1: It Takes More Energy to ­Produce Ethanol than You Get from It!

Most ethanol research over the past 25 years has been on the topic of energy returned on energy invested (EROEI). Public discussion has been dominated by the American Petroleum Institute’s aggressive distribution of the work of Cornell professor David Pimentel and his numerous, deeply flawed studies. Pimentel stands virtually alone in portraying alcohol as having a negative EROEI—producing less energy than is used in its production.

In fact, it’s oil that has a negative EROEI. Because oil is both the raw material and the energy source for production of gasoline, it comes out to about 20% negative. That’s just common sense; some of the oil is itself used up in the process of refining and delivering it (from the Persian Gulf, a distance of 11,000 miles in tanker travel).

The most exhaustive study on ethanol’s EROEI, by Isaias de Carvalho Macedo, shows an alcohol energy return of more than eight units of output for every unit of input—and this study accounts for everything right down to smelting the ore to make the steel for tractors.

But perhaps more important than EROEI is the energy return on fossil fuel input. Using this criterion, the energy returned from alcohol fuel per fossil energy input is much higher. In a system that supplies almost all of its energy from biomass, the ratio of return could be positive by hundreds to one.


Myth #2: There Isn’t Enough Land to Grow Crops for Both Food and Fuel!

According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the U.S. has 434,164,946 acres of “cropland”—land that is able to be worked in an industrial fashion (monoculture). This is the prime, level, and generally deep agricultural soil. In addition to cropland, the U.S. has 939,279,056 acres of “farmland.” This land is also good for agriculture, but it’s not as level and the soil not as deep. Additionally, there is a vast amount of acreage—swamps, arid or sloped land, even rivers, oceans, and ponds—that the USDA doesn’t count as cropland or farmland, but which is still suitable for growing specialized energy crops.

Of its nearly half a billion acres of prime cropland, the U.S. uses only 72.1 million acres for corn in an average year. The land used for corn takes up only 16.6% of our prime cropland, and only 7.45% of our total agricultural land.

Even if, for alcohol production, we used only what the USDA considers prime flat cropland, we would still have to produce only 368.5 gallons of alcohol per acre to meet 100% of the demand for transportation fuel at today’s levels. Corn could easily produce this level—and a wide variety of standard crops yield up to triple this. Plus, of course, the potential alcohol production from cellulose could dwarf all other crops.

 

Myth #3: Ethanol’s an Ecological ­Nightmare!

You’d be hard-pressed to find another route that so elegantly ties the solutions to the problems as does growing our own energy. Far from destroying the land and ecology, a permaculture ethanol solution will vastly improve soil fertility each year.

The real ecological nightmare is industrial agriculture. Switching to organic-style crop rotation will cut energy use on farms by a third or more: no more petroleum-based herbicides, pesticides, or chemical fertilizers. Fertilizer needs can be served either by applying the byproducts left over from the alcohol manufacturing process directly to the soil, or by first running the byproducts through animals as feed.


Myth #4: It’s Food Versus Fuel—We Should Be Growing Crops for Starving Masses, Not Cars!

Humankind has barely begun to work on designing farming as a method of harvesting solar energy for multiple uses. Given the massive potential for polyculture yields, monoculture-study dismissals of ethanol production seem silly when viewed from economic, energetic, or ecological perspectives.

Because the U.S. grows a lot of it, corn has become the primary crop used in making ­ethanol here. This is supposedly ­controversial, since corn is identified as a staple food in poverty-stricken parts of the world. But 87% of the U.S. corn crop is fed to animals. In most years, the U.S. sends close to 20% of its corn to other countries. While it is assumed that these exports could feed most of the hungry in the world, the corn is actually sold to wealthy nations to fatten their livestock. Plus, virtually no impoverished nation will accept our corn, even when it is offered as charity, due to its being genetically modified and therefore unfit for human consumption.

Also, fermenting the corn to alcohol results in more meat than if you fed the corn directly to the cattle. We can actually increase the meat supply by first processing corn into alcohol, which only takes 28% of the starch, leaving all the protein and fat, creating a higher-quality animal feed than the original corn.

 

Myth #5: Big Corporations Get All Those Ethanol Subsidies, and
Taxpayers Get Nothing in Return!

Between 1968 and 2000, oil companies received subsidies of $149.6 billion, compared to ethanol’s paltry $116.6 million. The subsidies alcohol did receive have worked extremely well in bringing maturity to the industry. Farmer-owned cooperatives now produce the majority of alcohol fuel in the U.S. Farmer-owners pay themselves premium prices for their corn and then pay themselves a dividend on the alcohol profit.

The increased economic activity derived from alcohol fuel production has turned out to be crucial to the survival of noncorporate farmers, and the amounts of money they spend in their communities on goods and services and taxes for schools have been much higher in areas with an ethanol plant. Plus, between $3 and $6 in tax receipts are generated for every dollar of ethanol subsidy. The rate of return can be much higher in rural communities, where re-spending within the community produces a multiplier factor of up to 22 times for each
alcohol fuel subsidy dollar.

 

Myth #6: Ethanol Doesn’t ­Improve Global Warming! In Fact, It ­Pollutes the Air!

Alcohol fuel has been added to gasoline to reduce virtually every class of air pollution. Adding as little as 5–10% alcohol can reduce carbon monoxide from gasoline exhaust dramatically. When using pure alcohol, the reductions in all three of the major pollutants—carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxides, and ­hydrocarbons—are so great that, in many cases, the remaining emissions are unmeasurably small. Reductions of more than 90% over gasoline emissions in all categories have been routinely documented for straight alcohol fuel.

It is true that when certain chemicals are included in gasoline, addition of alcohol at 2–20% of the blend can cause a reaction that makes these chemicals more volatile and evaporative. But it’s not the ethanol that’s the problem; it’s the gasoline.

Alcohol carries none of the heavy metals and sulfuric acid that gasoline and diesel exhausts do. And straight ethanol’s evaporative emissions are dramatically lower than gasoline’s, no more toxic than what you’d find in the air of your local bar.

As for global warming, the production and use of alcohol neither reduces nor increases the atmosphere’s CO2. In a properly designed system, the amount of CO2 and water emitted during fermentation and from exhaust is precisely the amount of both chemicals that the next year’s crop of fuel plants needs to make the same amount of fuel once again.

Alcohol fuel production actually lets us reduce carbon dioxide emissions, since the growing of plants ties up many times more carbon dioxide than is created in the production and use of the alcohol. Converting from a hydrocarbon to a ­carbohydrate economy could quickly reduce atmospheric carbon dioxide."

 

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#12
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II do agree most of contents, except Mith #5. Farmers are receiving benefit from higher crop price, but that also causes increase of crop market price. For instance, Mexicans are suffering from high corn price. Also, there are a number of people who are benegitting more than farmers from ethanol from corn.

 

The plan has to be more carefully proceeded. There are at least a couple of plants that is more suitable to produce ethanol than corn. It should not affect food price.

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#13
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Myth 5 does allow for some funny manipulation of prices.  Right now BIG OIL Valero is trying to bust Verasun and buy up its operation.  Do we really want BIG OIL running the production of ethanol?

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#14
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We do not want BIG OIL to monopolize and manipulate the market. On the other hand, howeveer, if many small companies are going to do it, who is going to control quality products?

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#15
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Ah...ha...!  I now have to show my true colors!  I am a diehard Libertarian.  I say let's develop local community economic loops with our own fuel, engergy, and food.  We will regulate ourselves.  In my community of 2000 and about 20000 surrounding this would work great!

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